Hi Celegil! I had some thoughts to add on this topic, and thought it would make more sense to put them here rather than starting a separate page. But rather than just going ahead wiki-style, since the page has "Celegil's" written all over it, I thought I'd ask before wading in. If you want to keep your authorship "intact" I can put "Aleithia adds:" with my comments in each relevant section, rather than doing a straight edit. Is that ok with you? Aleithia (SWC) 08:52, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello there Aleitha.
That sounds like a nice idea. What we could is make it like 'Celegil and Aleitha's guide to Night Elf Roleplaying'. Then you just say 'Aleitha adds:...'. We could also completely rebuild the whole thing but that's a lot of work and I don't think that's really needed, unless you insist ofcourse ^^.
--Celegil Moonwatcher 08:38, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Ok, I've made a start with the first section; I still have some more thoughts to add later on. I do think the text could benefit from a friendly rewrite; as it stands, it feels a little long. But I don't insist.
Aleithia flutters her eyelashes innocently, hiding the scissors behind her back.
I could always try a rewrite and post it here for your approval first. May I? Aleithia (SWC) 14:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
---
A few comments, if there's going to be a reworking:
- Age. This section has now been settled in Blizzard lore as "all elves living thousands of years". The point about being adult enough at 16 to have a love affair is good, is suggests they mature physically at a "human rate". The point of being "adults" at 110-300 years is also good, it suggests that just like humans, they grow up very fast physically but in terms of experience and maturity, they still have craploads of growing up to do before they're taken seriously as adults. I do think both lore references, 110 and 300 are reasonable: the variance is minimal compared to Night Elf lifespan, and roughly matches humans being physically mature at 14-18 but adults at 18-28, depending on culture and personality. The "old at 600" bit is IMO a relic of when Blizz was saying Night Elves die at 700-800, and should be ignored in the light of retconned lore
- Attitudes re. dwarves: Is there lore or ingame reference to suggest night elves actually resent drinking? I haven't found any. Their overall culture would suggest they resent overindulgence, as in drinking till you fall down and throw up and become generally useless, but drinking when you can still hold your liquor? WoW festivals are shaky reference, but the arguably Night Elf Moon Festival has an alcoholic drink of it's own -- I think that suggests Night Elves not being tea-totalitarian on a species level.
- Attitudes re. High/Blood Elves: The hate here is only partially because Quel'dorei looked down on other elves. It's also because the Quel'dorei invited demons into the world, realised they screwed up because of their greed for magic, and still to this day refuse to give up magic, even though arcane magic (in traditional Night Elf opinion) is the root of everything bad that's happened over the last 10,000 years. It's partially an old grudge, but it's also anger that the children stupidly refuse to learn from the most obvious mistake of their ancestors. Even worse, Blood Elves condone warlocks and actively subsist off demonic magics, effectively embracing those mistakes.
- Female druids: Cenarius taught Tyrande as well as the brothers, Tyrande just chose Elune instead. Supports the "it's a gender bias, not a gender rule" note already recorded. :)
Auburn(SWC) 17:46, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the things you say. What you said about the Dwarves is probably closer to the lore then I pointed out about a year ago. At that time, I hadn't experienced the Lunar festival yet so I wasn't sure about that one. So, at the time of writing the original guide (August 2008), I decided to stick with Celegil's personal view on drinking.
I both totally agree with the age and the view on female Druids. I think Blizzard only changed those view details recently so go ahead and add them ;).
Finally, I sometimes forget to check this Wiki daily, perhaps its a good idea to talk further on MSN. My WoW MSN account is celegilmoonwatcher@hotmail.com. --Celegil Moonwatcher 10:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
Delay is okay, this doesn't need to be finished right now, and I think it's good that people can see what has been changed, when and why. :)
I fixed the bits you said to, I also added the lore about the Highborne. While doing that I noticed the bit about Draenei, which I missed before. It got me thinking. Draenei are peaceful now, but they're also descendants of the Eredar, who basically did what the Highborne did except worse -- they actually destroyed Argus when they meddled with magic and let demons in. The Draenei are the faction that were rescued by the Naaru, much like the Night Elves were rescued by Cenarius and the green, red and bronze Dragonflights - the major difference is that the Draenei never gave up their dangerous arcane magic. Presumably they can use it without the corruption arcane magi are otherwise subject to, because they are directly protected by the Naaru (while the Night Elves only follow the teachings of their saviors).
...I'm not sure what I'm getting at. Maybe even traditional Night Elves would respect the Draenei for their similar history, but at the same time be wary of Draenei magic use tempting others who don't share the Naaru's protection. Or of the possibility that the Naaru's protection isn't as good as the Draenei think, and the Draenei might still become twisted by magic like the Blood Elves eventually were. After all -- Cenarius was killed by lousy orcs, who says the Naaru can't be lost too?
Auburn(SWC) 19:45, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
An interesting debate that is for sure. Most of the sources where I got my point of view from is Azuremyst Isle. I'll try to describe what I mean.
In one of the villages, you will see that a wounded Night Elf priestess is looked after by some Draenei. I think the Night Elves would appreciate that kind of treatment. My second source is the dock near the Exodar. Two Night Elves are there. They play a role in one of the Draenei starting quests as a way point towards the Darkshore quests.
My final source is the end of the main Draenei starting quest. When you finish that quest, Prophet Velen pops up and people cheer before him. One of the people that cheer before him is the wounded Night Elf priestess I mentioned earlier.
Though these things could be seen as game mechanics, I do think Blizzard wanted to point out there is a peaceful relation between the Night Elves and the Draenei nowadays.
Anyway, I like what your doing :)
--Celegil Moonwatcher 12:03, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, I've started the big rewrite. I've tried to keep all the content, but I've slightly reorganised the information, tried to remove any repeated information, and rewritten quite heavily. I hope you like the result! Feel free to edit, add, correct... or just roll back if you really hate it. Enjoy! --Aleithia (SWC) 19:11, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I read it over completely and I think its a major improvement over the old version. It reads a lot easier then my old version since that one had a lot of odd sentences. The only thing I edited from your version is the small mention of the Cenarion Circle guild. As much as I like that guild, its best to keep those things out of a guide.
Oh, I also edited a few spelling issues and it now says 'Celegil and Aleitha proudly presen..'. A little boasting of our work can't harm ;).
Thanks for the editing, much appreciated. You could post it on our Realm Forum again as V2.0 of this guide. As long as you say the original is from me and that you have edited it. I can't post at the moment since my WoW account is inactive till early June, but perhaps you could do it.
Anyway, nice job! --Celegil Moonwatcher 13:18, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
I added a section on the common mistakes and how/why to avoid them. I figure it's useful for TL;DR types.
I'd also like to have the crash-course of Kaldorei history someplace, context makes a lot of the history make more sense. The Guardians use http://cenarionguardians.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=info&action=display&thread=14
Auburn(SWC) 12:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Ah, that timeline looks sweet. Short and easy to read. Go ahead and add it!
--Celegil Moonwatcher 14:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Wow! You two really deserve kudos for this guide! I am myself a real fan of lore, and night elves are my favorite race. This guide really is useful, I hope that night elves (the serious ones) would gives this a peek. If all of them RPed this way, it would improve the scene marvelously.
(Edit: Somehow the wikia didnt give me the line and the timestamp, I added it manualy (Am I supposed to? Does it comes afterwards or was this a bug?))
--Kaliv 21:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
You have to add it manually. No bug. Just the little button on the top before you post each message. It will become a habit in no-time. Thank you for the positive comment! --Celegil Moonwatcher 21:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
Added a solid reference on female druids, some edits to the bits about draenei and lesbianism. I think the draenei-bit now better covers the points Celegil and I both wanted raised. The lesbian thing I fiddled with mostly because while there's no lore saying all nelfs are hetero, there's also no lore saying all nelfs don't smoke pot every day. We don't assume they're commonly hopheads due to lack of denial, we shouldn't suggest they're commonly lesbian or bi just because we're not told the opposite. Lack of denial doesn't mean it's common, just that it's not impossible. I also have a problem with the "majority of males" assumption, "the majority of druids are men" does not add up to "the majority of men are druids". I the whole men=druids thing is a misconception based on WC3 units, where only the druids were male -- since only the armies were represented, and there are no other commonly male military roles in the culture.
Auburn(SWC) 10:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Yay, edit conflicts! I should quit typing and get levelling... :-) I did some more tidying of the text, and added a whole bunch of links to wowwiki for the lore. Following a suggestion by Serinde, I also changed one reference to Elune, as apparently she is a pacifist after all.
I like all the changes you made, Auburn. Did you disagree that racial similarity to Eredar might be a possible reason for some Kaldorei to dislike Draenei?
I've changed "Aleithia" to "The Cenarion Guardians" at the top, and added "Kestrel, and friends" at the bottom. Is that ok with you, Kestrel/Auburn?
As regards plugging guilds, this being the SWC(EU) wiki, I figured it's not such a shameless plug, since it's actually relevant. If there are other Night Elf RP guilds corresponding to in-world organisations worth mentioning in the article, I'd be happy to have them too. Of course, if we publish this elsewhere, we'll want to remove anything server-specific.
Finally, thanks Kaliv for the really nice feedback! Glad to see people like this. Once we're finished making improvements, we should definitely repost it on the RP forum, and maybe even wowwiki.
--Aleithia (SWC) 11:42, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
That was an oops on my part with the Eredar: fixed. Also posted a link to the SWC realm forum, in case other lore nuts want to troubleshoot. Good job on the links. :)
I like those last few edits. The time line and the common mistakes are a nice way of refraining people to choose a character like that.
The lesbianism was indeed something that was not lore supported at that time but I presumed it was something not uncommon. However! With the release of Wrath of the Lich King, at certain times of the day, a Night Elf female can be seen fluttering her eyes and eyebrows towards another Sentinel in Star's Rest, Dragonblight. But..yes, it remains a bit of a hard issue.
EDIT: I added that small paragraph into the guide at chapter 5.
About the males. When I posted the initial version of my guide in late August 2008, I used about 75% of the lore from Warcraft III, and the rest from World of Warcraft. It is true that a lot of males can be seen doing other things in World of Warcraft, like caretakers and the flight master here and there. I do think we have to say that, when it comes to warfare, and that happens a lot in Warcraft, females are the dominant sex. --Celegil Moonwatcher 13:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
If you look at Tyrande and Malfurion, she is anything but dominant. I'd rather say women have the political and martial power, but men have the skills and wisdom. Equal, just very different.
Re-edited the last paragraph of chapter 5, to be less about community prejudices and more about what we actually know (or don't). The point about the NPC's is good, and demonstrates Blizzard doesn't rule out non-straight sexuality. It's still lightyears away from demonstrating that absence of the (presumably small) druidic portion of the men makes nelf women habitually romance eachother. I imagine romantic friendships in the Victorian Frodo+Sam style being common, but actual physical love-affairs? Barring evidence, I think the best course is to state the community theory, point out it's extremely dubious evidence, and just leave it at Blizzard not ruling out gay Night Elves.
...Oh, devil's advocate. If the girls are all doing each other because the druids beign away makes them lonely, what are the druids doing with only each other for company? Presumably they're just as lonely, but no-one ever suggests the boys are happily hugging each other for comfort. :)
Auburn(SWC) 17:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Nice improvements Kes, thanks.
"no-one ever suggests the boys are happily hugging each other for comfort"
Oh, yes I do. :-P I like this version best so far.
--Aleithia (SWC) 19:44, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Just read through most of the article. Amazing work you've done here, and I dare say a wonderful guide. Well done. \=)
--Elizabetha 10:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
Added bits on religion to the cultural chapter, and edited the history a little. Though younger elves may have funny ideas, there's still living nelfs old enough to know they weren't the first race -- the trolls were around at about the same time (according to some speculation, nelfs are trolls who found Elune and evolved in her image), so were the Dwarves. :)
Auburn(SWC) 10:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Nice additions, thanks! One small typo corrected. I'll update the version on the realm forum. --Aleithia (SWC) 15:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Great!
Great Guide,I'll be sure to use it in my RP and steer other RPers I know to this guide.It's a big help to me being as I'm making a Kaldorei Guild,keep up the good work :) --DwarvenMug 18:30, September 5, 2009 (UTC)
Reverted the last set of edits (the Cataclysm lore updates), as they deal with parts of the timeline that haven't happened yet, and so can't be used for RP either (which people might do, if they assume the lore here is current - as it should be). It'll be good to add once Cata goes live -- until then, the guide should stick to "the story so far", and leave future plot twists out, or at most to a footnote on coming events in Cata.
Auburn(SWC) 16:04, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
Kestrel has a point here Celegil, let's keep any post-Cataclysm revisions and updates on this page, beneath a spoiler warning. We can copy/paste them across when the patch hits, and be impressively up-to-the-minute.Aleithia (SWC) 08:09, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
New pre-Cataclysm version posted. It's a bit longer, but I hope it's a big improvement. Waiting for feedback! --Aleithia (SWC) 14:18, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
Celegil, Aldrannath? Credit the text that's cut/pasted from TCG's forums, or don't use it. Actually, fix the credits in general - I wrote two chapters and parts of several more, that's a great deal more than "comments and suggestions". Auburn(SWC) 23:00, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
No offence intended Kestrel; I wasn't sure whether you'd want an authorship credit as we haven't asked you for input on the latest version, and not that much of your original input has remained intact. But you're entitled to an authorship credit if you want one, so I've reinstated you as before. --Aleithia (SWC) 23:23, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
We took the old version and I edited the new bits in and set some errors straight. This internal version then wend to Aldrannath who edited almost everything and rewrote 90% of it.
Frankly, I'm quite sick of this childish discussion about ownership Kestrel. If you remember correctly, I never gave you official permission to change the version I wrote on my own, only Aldrannath. So I'll just be childish in return by making a new timeline myself and cut out the one you made.
Oh and yes, I could have contacted you personally about this but since you didn't contact me and Aldrannath personally either, I'm putting my reply here. Tough luck.
--Celegil Moonwatcher 08:47, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
You specifically and personally requested the TCG timeline on this page, Celegil - read back up, it's your 5th comment here. If you have a problem with it now, then just rewrite that and the Common Mistakes chapters, and you can freely to knock me down to "comments and suggestions". That's actually even the adult and reasonable way to handle it, if you really do have a problem with crediting my writing.
Another solution is to keep it as is and credit yourself with upkeep of the article (because you do deserve credit for that, I have nothing much to do with it), me with authorship of "some sections" and the rest with "comments and suggestions".
Aldrannath, the Timeline and Common Mistakes sections are still original enough that I'd be paid for them in a commercial publication, damn right I want credit if they are still being used. Author credits are an area I feel strongly about, as any media professional should - but apology accepted, carry on. Auburn(SWC) 12:17, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
Long horizontal line.
An excellent guide, I must say. It covers pretty much everything, doesn't it? I noticed one typo, "...and www.wowwiki.com/Ysera Ysera]" it says. Aside from that, I think it's all damn good.
This message was written by Zeesa, but I don't know how to log in any more. I reckon I forgot my password. And account name.
Added a BIG FAT disclaimer
Because of some response I got from the realm forum, I made the disclaimer bold instead of normal text. I hope that's enough to make the citizens of Goldshire happy. Urgh. --Celegil Moonwatcher 09:40, October 25, 2010 (UTC)
Post-Shattering updates
The advent of "Lieutenant" and even "Sentinel Mistress" (anyone got a handle on that one?) NPCs has blown our notion of Huntresses as mid-ranking officers out of the water, pretty much; I've revised the text on Sentinels to reflect that. Please keep an eye open for "ranked" Sentinel NPCs; we might be able to put together a more comprehensive list. --Aleithia (SWC) 15:20, November 27, 2010 (UTC)
I've now moved an extended account of the Shen'dralar to the history section, and added a few paragraphs about Mages to "Major groups and roles". Feedback and corrections welcome. --Aleithia (SWC) 16:16, November 27, 2010 (UTC)
Wowwiki vs wowpedia?
I'm curious as to why someone has changed all the wowwiki links to wowpedia. Not that I particularly object (I haven't checked all the links yet) but I'm wondering what difference it makes. --Aleithia (SWC) 16:54, January 2, 2011 (UTC)
Probably someone with a grudge against wikia. Most of wowwiki's community left to form wowpedia anyway.